sj2273
06-11 07:49 PM
To be honest, I do agree that the US needs qualified people with skillsets. The real question is "Are the people from the desi consulting companies the real qualified lot ? " Just to get my background details out of the way. I am a new member, from India ofcourse, and I have recently applied for my citizenship. Now with this huge deluge of immigrants, especially from the desi consulting companies, I feel that my quality of life is getting adversely impacted. Do not rush to conclusions that I am anti Indian or anti immigrant. 12 years back when I first got my H1 visa, the requirements to qualify were strict. Staffing companies to a decent extent followed rules and tried to get the best and the brightest. Once the dot com boom started, people from all walks of life entered IT. This was true of not just the Indians but also of people in the US. Soon after the bust, the value proposition from these staffing companies was simply low cost. This is not to blame the staffing companies. They behaved in an economically rational way.
Consider this scenario. If you run a consulting company, wouldn't you try to maximize your profits by staffing people in projects at the least cost ? This is econmically rational. You wouldn't worry much about the quality of the deliverables and all you would care is to dump as many bodies as possible at the client site or offshore and get the maximum bang for the buck.
In this scenario, how is it feasible to expect immigrational justice when the bodies themselves dont provide exceptional talent and skills but simply offer low cost ? Now you would be tempted to bring in the analogous case of illegal low skilled immigrants. Remember they are just that - low skilled workers. They dont "steal" the jobs of high skilled workers. But this dumping of IT workforce has completely brought down the standard of living of the IT workers here. To be honest, those who get green cards today would feel the same way five years from now when the next wave of so called "skilled IT immigrants" offer even lower wages and destroy the quality of life.
In summary, this retrogression is good in a way. The truly best and the brightest would still be employed until their turn for adjournment comes in. Only the weak are currently scared of the delays. I went through the same torrid GC phase after the tech meltdown in 2001. I was not worried of my job then but many people whom I knew got clobbered and were forced to leave. This is the darwinian flush and it will take its toll. Trust me this the bitter truth. If you people still consider that all the people on H1/L1 are part of the best and the brightest, they are WRONG. Only a small % (probably 20%) are the true best and the brightest and a good 50% will be flushed out. Sorry to say this and hey give me the red dots.
Dear Dilip,
Thank you for your kind words and analysis. But I am sure you will agree to the fact that bad apples are everywhere. You were qualified - good for you! Unfortunately, we are sailing in a boat that has good and not so good people. I can quote examples where I have not only come across dishonest indians but dishonest people from every nationalitly that you know of. I have been in the field for over 13 years (not a techie) and believe me my job puts me infront of all kinds of people. Now coming to the point - we are all here to find a solution to a bigger problem - retrogression and mr. op's decree that we will have to wait for decades before we can see that 485 approval. Well, I disagree and have a gut feeling that something is wrong somewhere. Its not a clear picture. I am optimistic about the fact that if we wish, we can still have people in the government at least look at our case. There is a lot of work to be done and we need help from people like you in doing so. We need intelligent people like you to advice, suggest and generate optimism and not derail us by letting us know that Indians are dishonest, not qualified etc. We all already know that!
That does not serve our purpose to be here. Thank you for reading my posting.
Consider this scenario. If you run a consulting company, wouldn't you try to maximize your profits by staffing people in projects at the least cost ? This is econmically rational. You wouldn't worry much about the quality of the deliverables and all you would care is to dump as many bodies as possible at the client site or offshore and get the maximum bang for the buck.
In this scenario, how is it feasible to expect immigrational justice when the bodies themselves dont provide exceptional talent and skills but simply offer low cost ? Now you would be tempted to bring in the analogous case of illegal low skilled immigrants. Remember they are just that - low skilled workers. They dont "steal" the jobs of high skilled workers. But this dumping of IT workforce has completely brought down the standard of living of the IT workers here. To be honest, those who get green cards today would feel the same way five years from now when the next wave of so called "skilled IT immigrants" offer even lower wages and destroy the quality of life.
In summary, this retrogression is good in a way. The truly best and the brightest would still be employed until their turn for adjournment comes in. Only the weak are currently scared of the delays. I went through the same torrid GC phase after the tech meltdown in 2001. I was not worried of my job then but many people whom I knew got clobbered and were forced to leave. This is the darwinian flush and it will take its toll. Trust me this the bitter truth. If you people still consider that all the people on H1/L1 are part of the best and the brightest, they are WRONG. Only a small % (probably 20%) are the true best and the brightest and a good 50% will be flushed out. Sorry to say this and hey give me the red dots.
Dear Dilip,
Thank you for your kind words and analysis. But I am sure you will agree to the fact that bad apples are everywhere. You were qualified - good for you! Unfortunately, we are sailing in a boat that has good and not so good people. I can quote examples where I have not only come across dishonest indians but dishonest people from every nationalitly that you know of. I have been in the field for over 13 years (not a techie) and believe me my job puts me infront of all kinds of people. Now coming to the point - we are all here to find a solution to a bigger problem - retrogression and mr. op's decree that we will have to wait for decades before we can see that 485 approval. Well, I disagree and have a gut feeling that something is wrong somewhere. Its not a clear picture. I am optimistic about the fact that if we wish, we can still have people in the government at least look at our case. There is a lot of work to be done and we need help from people like you in doing so. We need intelligent people like you to advice, suggest and generate optimism and not derail us by letting us know that Indians are dishonest, not qualified etc. We all already know that!
That does not serve our purpose to be here. Thank you for reading my posting.
wallpaper ranchu gold fish
zCool
05-11 10:13 AM
Takes 4 years to get Aussie citizenship now..
Citizenship is not a toll-pass.. you are taking an oath to be loyal to 1 country.. you are giving up another.. I think GC backlog is messing up with folks' heads.. the cavelier attitude abt things like citizenship etc.. :)
Citizenship is not a toll-pass.. you are taking an oath to be loyal to 1 country.. you are giving up another.. I think GC backlog is messing up with folks' heads.. the cavelier attitude abt things like citizenship etc.. :)
aps
09-23 02:26 AM
Most of us are waiting in line for years by sacrificing their career growth and earnings with the so called consulting companies. what for? To get a green card by buying a home here? Is it sensible? common. Bring some common solution to everybody, not for few. If you want to leave some IV members behind, then you may continue with this idea. your proposal DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE to me.
2011 Wild BC Salmon at Goldfish
JazzByTheBay
02-15 10:44 AM
You can pack your bags and leave. You are here by your own choice, and work within the legal framework of the country. You are free to leave when you please.
The slavery argument doesn't hold.
jazz
Modern Day Slavery in the 21st century
Any person who is restricted from making travel choices, employer choice, personal choices beneficial to himself and his family, just because his employer or the goverment is restricting him in some form to make monetary benefit for itself, is called a slave.
I have reached the critical mass in me to take this up on my own, any legal advice and moral support from you guys would be appreciated.
Thanks
The slavery argument doesn't hold.
jazz
Modern Day Slavery in the 21st century
Any person who is restricted from making travel choices, employer choice, personal choices beneficial to himself and his family, just because his employer or the goverment is restricting him in some form to make monetary benefit for itself, is called a slave.
I have reached the critical mass in me to take this up on my own, any legal advice and moral support from you guys would be appreciated.
Thanks
more...
sidbee
06-17 02:17 PM
I have heard the opposite. In fact one recent story I heard , was the guy applied in EB1 as International Manager and got his GC in 6 months. Again the company applying is Cognizant.
Maybe the source u heard from is someone from Cognizant itself or supporter of Cognizant whose trying to cover up and trying make sure that no one reports about their misuse of EB1, so that they can continue to apply in EB1. This is a high possibility. So when you hear such news do not believe it completely.
Morever H-1Bs are rejected for lot of companies. So cognizant is no exception to that. Regarding the EB-1 GC holders being deported , I find that really hard to believe.
Its perfectly legal for Cognizant to apply for EB1 for a Manager on L1A. Salary may be peanuts , and that cant be a basis of discrimination.
I don't even see a misuse, if you job duties are same as what is told to USCIS for L1A, You can easily get a GC in 2 months.
Which law states, getting GC using EB1 , on L1A is not allowed, In fact it is , and that's why people use it.
Maybe the source u heard from is someone from Cognizant itself or supporter of Cognizant whose trying to cover up and trying make sure that no one reports about their misuse of EB1, so that they can continue to apply in EB1. This is a high possibility. So when you hear such news do not believe it completely.
Morever H-1Bs are rejected for lot of companies. So cognizant is no exception to that. Regarding the EB-1 GC holders being deported , I find that really hard to believe.
Its perfectly legal for Cognizant to apply for EB1 for a Manager on L1A. Salary may be peanuts , and that cant be a basis of discrimination.
I don't even see a misuse, if you job duties are same as what is told to USCIS for L1A, You can easily get a GC in 2 months.
Which law states, getting GC using EB1 , on L1A is not allowed, In fact it is , and that's why people use it.
rajesh_kamisetty
07-10 02:27 PM
I really didn't mean to insult. I deleted it from my original post.
Hey dude
Dont insult a whole state....dont blame/depend on other people in making your decisions...
Hey dude
Dont insult a whole state....dont blame/depend on other people in making your decisions...
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Sakthisagar
06-11 09:37 AM
Why are you so worried? Dont be scared, make enough money and dont make silly financial decision. You can take your kitty back if push comes to shove. Economies in India and China are booming and you wont die hungry. I guarantee you that.
Economies in India and China are booming??? booming accroding to their economies not definitely competing with USA what is the value of 1 Indian Rupee in US dollars. just simply dont air some tactics around. As long as 22 Political parties rule India na each one having different agenda Forget about India becoming a developed country.
And don't dump USA as just like that it is also one of the Biggest and Greatest economy in the world, Still till this moment Dollar Rules. full stop.
Economies in India and China are booming??? booming accroding to their economies not definitely competing with USA what is the value of 1 Indian Rupee in US dollars. just simply dont air some tactics around. As long as 22 Political parties rule India na each one having different agenda Forget about India becoming a developed country.
And don't dump USA as just like that it is also one of the Biggest and Greatest economy in the world, Still till this moment Dollar Rules. full stop.
2010 Goldfish Painting - Goldfish
longq
02-13 02:59 PM
I don't think so. 7% limit has been there for a very long time. Unused visas from prior years for ac21 purposes were still subject to 7% in current year. The 7% rule was unchanged.
It seems that you think that the unused visas from prior year were not subject to 7%. There is nothing of the sort that allows this.
I am not saying 7% is not applicable for recaptured numbers. EB3-ROW was current while EB3-IN,Ch retrogressed in 2005.
Again 7% is not a quota or minimum or maximum. It is a guiding tool to avoid monopoly (not to prevent) for fist two months in a quarter and gave the remaining number to third month. It is not meant for reservation.
As you said Bangaldeshies can not raise flag they as have not consumed 7% quota. Therefore one can not argue that Bangladesh-EB3 should be "current".
At the end, first-come first served should prevails.
It seems that you think that the unused visas from prior year were not subject to 7%. There is nothing of the sort that allows this.
I am not saying 7% is not applicable for recaptured numbers. EB3-ROW was current while EB3-IN,Ch retrogressed in 2005.
Again 7% is not a quota or minimum or maximum. It is a guiding tool to avoid monopoly (not to prevent) for fist two months in a quarter and gave the remaining number to third month. It is not meant for reservation.
As you said Bangaldeshies can not raise flag they as have not consumed 7% quota. Therefore one can not argue that Bangladesh-EB3 should be "current".
At the end, first-come first served should prevails.
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jsb
06-04 01:20 PM
I agree. These are semantics of the process. Whatever they do it should appear to be an admin fix, rather than bypassing the law.
This is what I was also proposing in another thread. we should ask for an administrative fix where once the application is pre adjudicated the applicant should be left alone and not issed any Employment verification letter rfe, or semilar\same job restrictions if they are back logged because of country quota and face multiple year wait, this way atleast it will give people some breating space, the way the system if set up right now, EAD, 485 pre adjudication, I140 approval are all useless if you keep getting Employment verification letter rfe and same semilar job rquirement. Without visa recapure it is going to take atleast 10 years for Eb3 and Eb2 india, in the next 10 years you will keep getting Employement verifivation letter rfe and semilar and same job requirement, there is no way anybody can survive that for 10 yeears. Administrative fix like this can happen without passing a law, for example USCIS started issuing 2 year EAD for retrogressed applicants as an administrative fix. We dont even need a interim green card we can continue on EAD with the administrative fix to exempt cases which have been preadjucated (485) from Employment verification letter RFE and same and semilar job requirement.
This is what I was also proposing in another thread. we should ask for an administrative fix where once the application is pre adjudicated the applicant should be left alone and not issed any Employment verification letter rfe, or semilar\same job restrictions if they are back logged because of country quota and face multiple year wait, this way atleast it will give people some breating space, the way the system if set up right now, EAD, 485 pre adjudication, I140 approval are all useless if you keep getting Employment verification letter rfe and same semilar job rquirement. Without visa recapure it is going to take atleast 10 years for Eb3 and Eb2 india, in the next 10 years you will keep getting Employement verifivation letter rfe and semilar and same job requirement, there is no way anybody can survive that for 10 yeears. Administrative fix like this can happen without passing a law, for example USCIS started issuing 2 year EAD for retrogressed applicants as an administrative fix. We dont even need a interim green card we can continue on EAD with the administrative fix to exempt cases which have been preadjucated (485) from Employment verification letter RFE and same and semilar job requirement.
hair Photo: Two bubble eye goldfish
stemcell
06-01 02:28 PM
The only solution , to all our problems, is a LAWSUIT.
The earlier some one has the balls to do it , the better it is.
what lawsuit :confused:
whom are we going to sue? USCIS for following what the congress has laid out....
i guess what you mean maybe is sue the congress.....:D
The earlier some one has the balls to do it , the better it is.
what lawsuit :confused:
whom are we going to sue? USCIS for following what the congress has laid out....
i guess what you mean maybe is sue the congress.....:D
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GCA
08-17 01:47 PM
Collin Powell incident is America's problem. Even after the civil rights movement and equality to Blacks, they are still having discrimination. Just ask Black people in America and how they feel in their daily life.
So according to you by coming to America we should forget India because you will call us traitor? Have you heard how Jews in America are so strong and care for Israel even after becoming US citizens?
The fact is Indians are responsible for their own problems and greencard woes. They want to live in this sorry state and blame everyone else around them except themselves. They do not have any pride in their roots and thus flee their own country. They do not come to this country for betterment of their skills, education and experience but because they want to flee the country. There maybe exceptions but this is what I have seen in Indians who are on H1B or who have become US Citizens.
There could be several reasons for people coming here. But most and primary reason is making some quick money and returning back. And a good portion of that money goes back to our motherland to prosper. People didn't flee the country. They flew out of the country because their skills are valued more elsewhere - its simple demand supply economics that made/makes our skills more valued outside - I don't want to eloborate more and hurt someone which definitely wasn't the intention.
IF we are after the GC, its purely for the mobility and assurity it provides and not for the path to citizenship. Though most of them want to return back, we still want the GC so we call the shots and not the INS. Long story short, no one is a traitor. They are just common 'smart' people - yah, they are common from the land we come from.
So according to you by coming to America we should forget India because you will call us traitor? Have you heard how Jews in America are so strong and care for Israel even after becoming US citizens?
The fact is Indians are responsible for their own problems and greencard woes. They want to live in this sorry state and blame everyone else around them except themselves. They do not have any pride in their roots and thus flee their own country. They do not come to this country for betterment of their skills, education and experience but because they want to flee the country. There maybe exceptions but this is what I have seen in Indians who are on H1B or who have become US Citizens.
There could be several reasons for people coming here. But most and primary reason is making some quick money and returning back. And a good portion of that money goes back to our motherland to prosper. People didn't flee the country. They flew out of the country because their skills are valued more elsewhere - its simple demand supply economics that made/makes our skills more valued outside - I don't want to eloborate more and hurt someone which definitely wasn't the intention.
IF we are after the GC, its purely for the mobility and assurity it provides and not for the path to citizenship. Though most of them want to return back, we still want the GC so we call the shots and not the INS. Long story short, no one is a traitor. They are just common 'smart' people - yah, they are common from the land we come from.
hot Goldfish image 17
poorslumdog
05-02 05:33 PM
Dude I am not saying Aravas needs to learn Hindi.. Why should they an Hindi in TN that is the over piched loudness I am talking about. Chennai is metro city dude.. So many language people are stying there... for rest of the indian the hindi boards needed... Whats wrong..
But politicians and tamil activists successfully spread the hatered...:eek:
Then go to Asam and the naxels are waiting to kick your ass. And go to Mumbai and the Raj thakrey will give you enough shit
But politicians and tamil activists successfully spread the hatered...:eek:
Then go to Asam and the naxels are waiting to kick your ass. And go to Mumbai and the Raj thakrey will give you enough shit
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srinivasj
07-21 01:19 PM
its a big problem in Bay area, especially in walmarts, greatmall of america..they come with lame lines to strike a conversation...
tattoo pets: goldfish prints.
rajsenthil
05-02 05:20 PM
You are talking about Sinhala... LOL... Have you ever been to chennai? Look at the Black paint on Hindi letters on Government boards!:D
It is far far better than where in some states, North Indian people are kicked and thrown out. This NEVER happed in TN. May be some arrogant people like you make it happen.
It is far far better than where in some states, North Indian people are kicked and thrown out. This NEVER happed in TN. May be some arrogant people like you make it happen.
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Macaca
06-28 07:51 PM
I am analyzing for EB-2 (India). The current date for EB-2 India was Apr 1 2004 for month of June.
Retrogression started Oct 1 2005. Before Oct 1 2005, persons with PD < Oct 1 2005 (remember PERM) could have submitted I-485. Some (not all remember namecheck) of these would be ready for adj June 1st 2007. These applicants can be divided into 2 categories: those with PD <= Apr 1 2004 and those with PD > Apr 1 2004.
Applicants in first category will get GC in June and applicants in 2nd category will get GC in Jul. These applicants can exhaust 2007 quota.
USCIS is taking 3 weeks for notification of 485's submiited in June. I would be very surprised if they process a June submission in < 3 months. So chances of June applicant using GC number are low.
USCIS knew # applicants in above 2 categories: this appears trivial. If these applicants exhaust 2007 quota, USCIS knew that quota will get exhausted in Jul. The date can be of their choosing since the work involved must be pretty low.
A similar analysis can be done for any other category. Correct me if my dates are wrong.
Retrogression started Oct 1 2005. Before Oct 1 2005, persons with PD < Oct 1 2005 (remember PERM) could have submitted I-485. Some (not all remember namecheck) of these would be ready for adj June 1st 2007. These applicants can be divided into 2 categories: those with PD <= Apr 1 2004 and those with PD > Apr 1 2004.
Applicants in first category will get GC in June and applicants in 2nd category will get GC in Jul. These applicants can exhaust 2007 quota.
USCIS is taking 3 weeks for notification of 485's submiited in June. I would be very surprised if they process a June submission in < 3 months. So chances of June applicant using GC number are low.
USCIS knew # applicants in above 2 categories: this appears trivial. If these applicants exhaust 2007 quota, USCIS knew that quota will get exhausted in Jul. The date can be of their choosing since the work involved must be pretty low.
A similar analysis can be done for any other category. Correct me if my dates are wrong.
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srinivasj
07-21 01:19 PM
its a big problem in Bay area, especially in walmarts, greatmall of america..they come with lame lines to strike a conversation...
more...
makeup An innocent goldfish has
real_jr
05-29 04:56 PM
still ppl feel pulling others lag would get them GC - this commnity can never be united!:confused:
I agree that we need to be united. But does that mean we just accept people abusing EB1?
Dont you think it is unfair to people who have waited for all these years?
If more people start abusing EB1, then there will be no visa numbers for EB2/EB3.
When EB1 abuse is stopped, It may not get all of us GC, but atleast some of us could get GC.
I agree that we need to be united. But does that mean we just accept people abusing EB1?
Dont you think it is unfair to people who have waited for all these years?
If more people start abusing EB1, then there will be no visa numbers for EB2/EB3.
When EB1 abuse is stopped, It may not get all of us GC, but atleast some of us could get GC.
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jonty_11
06-28 05:16 PM
ok u guys have forced me to pose the same question to my HR/Attorney...awaiting response.
hairstyles Re: Some of my Goldfish.
sumitpendharkar
06-28 06:08 PM
Visa Bulletin April 2007
PD for Other workers category was 01 Oct 2001
E. VISA AVAILABILITY DURING THE COMING MONTHS
Employment-based: It is likely that the Employment Third Preference �Other Worker� (EW) category will become unavailable beginning in May.
Both of these issues are the direct result of low annual limits and very heavy demand for numbers, primarily for adjustment of status cases at Citizenship and Immigration Services Offices.
Visa Bulletin for May 2007
PD for Other workers category was U (unavailable)
E. EMPLOYMENT THIRD PREFERENCE �OTHER WORKER� CATEGORY BECOMES �UNAVAILABLE� FOR MAY
The Employment Third Preference �Other Worker� category is expected to reach the annual numerical limit during April. As a result, the category will become �Unavailable� beginning in May and will remain so for the remainder of FY-2007.
Visa Bulletin for June 2007
PD for Other workers category was 01 Oct 2001
D. EMPLOYMENT THIRD PREFERENCE �OTHER WORKER� CATEGORY FOR JUNE
A few �Other Worker� numbers which had been allocated for April were returned unused at the end of the month. As a result, a very small June allocation has been possible, for applicants with priority dates before October 1, 2001. The category will become �Unavailable� once again beginning in July and will remain so for the remainder of FY-2007.
So the VB does in fact indicate that there is only a "small June allocation" possible.
PD for Other workers category was 01 Oct 2001
E. VISA AVAILABILITY DURING THE COMING MONTHS
Employment-based: It is likely that the Employment Third Preference �Other Worker� (EW) category will become unavailable beginning in May.
Both of these issues are the direct result of low annual limits and very heavy demand for numbers, primarily for adjustment of status cases at Citizenship and Immigration Services Offices.
Visa Bulletin for May 2007
PD for Other workers category was U (unavailable)
E. EMPLOYMENT THIRD PREFERENCE �OTHER WORKER� CATEGORY BECOMES �UNAVAILABLE� FOR MAY
The Employment Third Preference �Other Worker� category is expected to reach the annual numerical limit during April. As a result, the category will become �Unavailable� beginning in May and will remain so for the remainder of FY-2007.
Visa Bulletin for June 2007
PD for Other workers category was 01 Oct 2001
D. EMPLOYMENT THIRD PREFERENCE �OTHER WORKER� CATEGORY FOR JUNE
A few �Other Worker� numbers which had been allocated for April were returned unused at the end of the month. As a result, a very small June allocation has been possible, for applicants with priority dates before October 1, 2001. The category will become �Unavailable� once again beginning in July and will remain so for the remainder of FY-2007.
So the VB does in fact indicate that there is only a "small June allocation" possible.
sledge_hammer
05-29 11:42 AM
3.2K visas for EB2I includes all applicants. So regardless of what type of processing, the last person to get his GC is 19 years from now, correct?
I think you have not yet included those doing Consular Processing in your computation. CP accounts for about 20% of total usage.
I think you have not yet included those doing Consular Processing in your computation. CP accounts for about 20% of total usage.
texanguy
05-29 12:34 PM
I think as someone said this guy was randomly throwing numbers out there. How come his analysis does not account for remaining 36K EB1 and EB2 ROW applications. Is he suggesting that all EB1 and EB2 ROW are being used up also. Very hard to believe that for 2008 and 2009 with the way the economy is going. Lot of product companies where most of the ROW 485s would likely come from have stopped applying perm since last summer. There is a huge flaw in this analysis and its not as pessimistic as it seems.
BUT, then again we need legislation to wipe the slate clean and clear these 200K applications, so there is a new build up of visa demand and wait times are tolerable for current applicants and future applicants.
AFAIK the major movement in the visa bulletin in last 3 months (july,august,sept) is not because of spill over of the EB1->EB2->EB3 form the same country, but using the leftover visas from countries like Nigeria, Fiji, Uruguay where the applicants for EB1 & EB2 are often in less than 3-digit numbers. I am surprised that Mr. Oppenheimer never addressed this spill over in his talk at AILA -where Murthy bulletin claims that this information has came from, or may be Murthy lawyers didnt take all the notes of the meeting?? :)
BUT, then again we need legislation to wipe the slate clean and clear these 200K applications, so there is a new build up of visa demand and wait times are tolerable for current applicants and future applicants.
AFAIK the major movement in the visa bulletin in last 3 months (july,august,sept) is not because of spill over of the EB1->EB2->EB3 form the same country, but using the leftover visas from countries like Nigeria, Fiji, Uruguay where the applicants for EB1 & EB2 are often in less than 3-digit numbers. I am surprised that Mr. Oppenheimer never addressed this spill over in his talk at AILA -where Murthy bulletin claims that this information has came from, or may be Murthy lawyers didnt take all the notes of the meeting?? :)
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